Speaker 1: 0:11

Alright, guys, welcome to episode 6 of its personal and entrepreneurs' contest with me, kurt Fadden, andrew McKelvie, and we have a super, super special guest today who threw literally halfway around the world from Australia, dave Claire, who is the CEO and founder of Circle Leadership, which we'll get more into. Dave, we're super happy to have you with us today.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Oh guys, thank you so much for making time for me to pop into the podcast studio. During my trip here, man, I've been watching the episodes and like it's awesome. I'm like can I get on the podcast? Can I get on the podcast?

Speaker 1: 0:43

Yeah, absolutely, man.

Speaker 1: 0:45

I gotta tell you like when I met Dave, it was probably what about a year ago now, I think, yeah, march 6th, 7th 8th right around that yeah at level up last year and I was, you know, as I talked about on Cumbies episode, kind of in a vulnerable place and I walked up to I believe it was you and Jeff Hoffman and had a conversation with you guys and Dave, very, very humble like he is, gave me his card and said, hey, you know, give me a call and let's have a Zoom session. And he didn't spend just like an hour with me, he spent I wouldn't say we were on the phone for almost two and a half hours, yeah, probably, and really gave me some advice that quite honestly sent me on a trajectory of being very intentional. I think Andrew can, kind of, you know, attest to that. And so you know, I just want to start by saying thank you because I appreciate the time that you took, without getting anything in return and then even being willing to come on the podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:40

It's actually a privilege. I offer that to a lot of people and I think you remember it's like why would you do this? And I like I offer this all the time and the only reason I offered it is only because 1% of the people take me up on it. And those 1% of the special people.

Speaker 1: 1:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:53

And they're the ones I know who are serious, so I'll spend as much time as I need to with people who are serious.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Yeah, and I and you showed up, man. So I appreciate that and I appreciate the time that you took. So let's start with a little bit. I know a lot about your background because I've heard you speak before, but I'd love to hear a little bit about your story and your background for our listeners, and kind of the path leading to where you are now.

Speaker 2: 2:16

Yeah, beautiful, I'll try to make a very long story short because. I'm a very old and wise man now, these days, well, I'd like to think I'm wise.

Speaker 2: 2:24

I'm definitely old. The yeah, so I'm actually Canadian, canadian born, and I live in Australia now, but the for me, my family moved to Australia back when I was about 15, in 1981. So you can do the math and work out how old I am now. Moved to Australia and then I got into banking and finance. It was an interesting journey for me, though, because my dad said you know, get a job with, you know, a bank or a telco or a government agency, have a good, secure job. Because in his time he, he was an entrepreneur of sorts and he, well, he was owned a couple of franchises, but through no fault of his own, the two franchisors went bankrupt. So he lost the business, but the family, in tremendous, challenging situations. So he wanted to make sure that we didn't go through something like that, and so his recommendation to us as the boys was to do that. So I went into banking and finance for about 13 years, but the in Australia and I was always in leadership roles. So I was blessed with great parenting and, whether it's nurture or nature, I was just really great with people, and so very quickly I got into like a supervisors role, and then you know, then actually, when one of the people were sick, then I jumped into the senior role and then, for note, I'm the first customer service manager appointed by the bank. And then when they changed the way that they did banking in Australia and then I took on bigger teams, bigger teams, and I just got into this leadership space. And then I also had a really great mentor, john McGuinness and I talk about that in my book Simplified that he saw something in me that I didn't see in myself and then he invested in me in not just bank type development and training but personal development and growth and goal setting and how your mind works and basic psychology stuff. And it flourished in that that they made me then become a facilitator, that to train other people back in the bank about that stuff. So I got an international accreditation as a facilitator for that organization to facilitate their process to other people. And so I just then I'm having bigger teams and bigger teams.

Speaker 2: 4:21

And then when I was leaving the bank I wanted to get on to an adventure in life and I was leading a team. There's about 75 people in our team. At the time it started with 10 and about two years time we had 75 people that we were looking after in the bank at the time, in the call center I was leading. But then this call for adventure came and I saw this opportunity then in Papua New Guinea to be a leadership development consultant. Happened to be in banking at the same time, but it was nothing to do with that. It was just here's my chance to do leadership as a career rather than just as a part of my role of responsibility in the organization. And so I got to.

Speaker 2: 4:56

So I packed my bags up, my wife and my son he was literally was about 18 months we went to Papua New Guinea. Never been there before. I could tell people some stories about New Guinea and happy to share some later, but it was a very developing country. So I was there to work with the expatriates and the national managers of a region within Papua New Guinea, and I was supposed to be there for three years. About 14 months later we decided to leave.

Speaker 2: 5:22

My wife then was pregnant with our second child, my daughter Jordan, and we did want to raise another child in New Guinea let's just get a little bit crazy. So we left and then we came back to Australia for her to be born, but I had this bug about leadership and being like independent, and so we moved to Canada, back to Canada for me, and when I was there I'm like I don't want to get on the job. I wanted to really pursue this leadership development and so I signed up with the leadership management international, which was then the largest personal and organizational development company in the world at the time, and I got my Canadian license for that organization and then started building my organization there in Ontario where I was based back in, and it was really interesting for me because this would have been back in the 1999, 2000. You guys would have been just little kids going to school at that stage. I was eight, nine, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:14

Once again I'm a little bit older, but it was really interesting for me because I was we're doing phenomenal work and this is back in the days you put, remember, but they had boxes and they had the tapes and the cassettes and all this sort of stuff and you buy the programs. They were great content and stuff and the process was really great. They taught me this process for human behavior, which I still use today and but they use it as a sales gimmick or a technique, and I realized at some stage that's the magic of everything is about human behavior and how we become who we are and capable of becoming what we're, you know, the greater heights of success we want in our own lives. And so I just really owned that process. And then I took that and took all the programs and I started chopping and changing them and built these processes and programs for our clients that helped them achieve phenomenal results. So, as a licensee of that organization, for the three years in a row, we had the Canadian client of the year and two of those clients went on out of 60 countries to win world clients of the year. And so we had yeah, and that was to me was the greatest seeing our clients succeed at that level and getting that recognition, to have no other licensee in the history of LMI ever had two world clients the year back to back and we had three in a row.

Speaker 2: 7:23

But the funny part of that was and this is what really set me on the path where I am sort of well, the let's call it the catalyst for where I am today is that they were getting upset with me for changing the programs around and playing with the things and then taking the tapes and recording them onto CDs, because CDs had just come out and they weren't willing to put them onto CDs and stuff. So I was just burning them myself and mixing the programs up and I wasn't selling enough boxes. In their mind, well, hanging, you should be selling more boxes. And I said, well, hang on, we're in the personal development organization of the success industry and you're worried, you're measuring success on the number of boxes I buy rather than the results we're getting with our clients. And so then I left and I left the organization and then I decided to develop my own tools and processes and methodologies. And then things were going great and we had this team of seven. We were doing phenomenal with the business.

Speaker 2: 8:16

But then my at that stage, my then wife decided to leave me in the kids and just go on and pursue her own life that she wanted. And so there I'm, a single day with two kids and the global financial crisis hit. So that vulnerable position you were in when we met, I just saw myself sitting there. I didn't tell you that, yeah, but that's what I saw, and I didn't have a Dave or a Jeff to sit across from. You just had to figure it out, yeah. So there I am, upside down on my house, upside down on my business, because I actually had a. I bought an office building, renovated an office building, so I've done that. I lost about 70% of my client base because a lot of it was in automotive manufacturing and like tier ones, and pliers, so that went down and then.

Speaker 2: 8:58

Obama reached in and pulled all those plants out of Southern Ontario, just gone through divorce, raising two kids. Then I met my wife today, who I have, and my other son now he was 14 when he was born into my life, so he was, so he's my son. And so we then had to rebuild. But at the same time I spoke to my dad. So it got to about 2008, 2009. I spoke to my dad in Australia and he said what crisis? Because Australia, our banking system, is totally different. There was no, and so he said why don't you come back here? It's like booming. And so we did.

Speaker 2: 9:34

So we packed up and moved back to Australia and got settled in here, and then I thought, oh, I might just rebuild my business here, but there was an opportunity actually to roll my sleeves up and get back in the trenches. I've always prided myself on being a practitioner, and so I wanted to prove that I could do it. You know, one of those who can't teach, those who teaches but can't do. Can't do that, yeah. So we got an opportunity to lead an offer profit organization fairly sizable one and turn it around in two years and build the culture and the strategy and doing all that. Then I had a whole bunch of people asking me in the industry how did you do that? What did you do?

Speaker 2: 10:09

And then I wrote my book, simplified this was probably about 2016, 17. And then decided to launch Circle Leadership. I think I launched it really pretty much 20, very beginning of 2017. And yeah, never look back. And so called the lessons that I've learned from all the leaders that I've worked with, all the lessons from my own business and now realizing that we need to create workplaces that are as amazing as the human beings who are in them. And so that's the work that we do now, when in evolving the world of work and helping organizations to evolve and stay relevant and the hearts of minds, the people they choose to serve, and taking all those life lessons and you know, one of our core values at Circle Leadership is wisdom, which is learned from experience.

Speaker 1: 10:49

Yeah, and I think, thinking back even to like at level up, I think one of the things that you said to me multiple times was those things that kind of I was ashamed of or didn't love. They were actually assets If you learn from them and we're able to tell other people about them, vulnerability and what you took away from them, and I think about that almost on a daily basis.

Speaker 2: 11:09

Yeah, I made a living out of that.

Speaker 1: 11:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah literally. Let me ask you this, because I would be remiss not to ask, because it's about being personal on here what, if any, like one or two major events that maybe weren't like the most savory events, would you say, were like the most impactful things on your personal business life that you think you've gone through, and what advice could you give people?

Speaker 2: 11:35

from those. Yeah, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to come on this podcast is because it is personal to me. So I'll preface this with understanding that people talk about business to business and business to consumer. B to B, b to C, it's all H to H, it's all human to human. Businesses don't do business with businesses, people in business do business with people in business. True, so it's all personal and for me, like I could look, there's a whole bunch of things that, even when I went through some of those challenges, it was interesting to see who stepped up and who stepped back and you could see the people I thought were really good friends and had really great relationships within business kind of disappeared into the weeds. You never see that thing with Homer Simpson.

Speaker 1: 12:19

He walks back into the good bushes. There was those people.

Speaker 2: 12:23

And then there was some of those that stepped up and clients of mine who really backed us all the way and said where are we, dave? We love the work that we're doing and that was really a significant thing for me because all the work that we do today with Circle Leadership it is very personal. I have one of our clients in Melbourne, australia, and his kids call me Uncle Dave. So because we've been obviously doing work over Zoom or Teams and that we're on the video and he's sometimes at home and his kids he's like oh, no, no, no, no, bring him up and we get to meet their kids and we get to meet the families and to me that's one of the best things is being part of their lives.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Because everything that we do at Circle Leadership is human first and we challenged leaders and organizations to go hang on, are you looking at this person as a human first, employee second, or are you looking at them as a resource to your business? Because we should have resources for humans, not humans as a resource. So everything is personal. So I've learned all this from those relationships and building that so much. So actually recently I've been struggling actually with one of our clients we did some work for for a long time and I helped them through a lot of stuff has gone and then started doing some of the stuff that we do now for their own clients and not involving us in it and so and it. You know, hey, it's business, do what you wanna do, but what hurt most is I thought we had a really great friendship and relationship and it highlighted for me that you know I had blinders onto that that that person was doing whatever best suited to them. And I know we've talked about this, kurt, but I talk about ego decisions and soul decisions.

Speaker 1: 13:59

It's one of the major things we talked about.

Speaker 2: 14:00

Yeah and that sometimes, you know, not all ego decisions are bad. But when we're making ego decisions sometimes it doesn't suit our soul and the best decisions are soul decisions. But sometimes you need to make some ego decisions to feed your soul and I understand that. But I, you know, I try to look at my why, consider it a friend and what hurts me most is, I think, one of my friends. It's not that his business has gone and done this, it's just that. A friend. That's the first time I actually spoke about it because I've only had ventured to a couple of people about it, but it's personal.

Speaker 1: 14:29

I suffer from the same thing, though. I think I think when you put a lot of genuine emotion, time and effort into anything whether it's you know, people you work with or serving a client when something that isn't inherently maybe like wrong, but definitely crosses like a boundary of relationship that you thought you had, I take it pretty personally too. It's something I definitely struggle with, and it doesn't mean doesn't mean that always it was even intentional but it certainly certainly makes you think about how intentional you are about putting time into certain things too.

Speaker 2: 15:05

But you know what? I'm not gonna let that spoil any of the other relationships. The danger you have, especially in relationships like if you treat the next relationship based on what happened in the last relationship, you're projecting that onto that.

Speaker 1: 15:18

You're lining it up, that's not fair.

Speaker 2: 15:21

You know, like this particular person, I help them move offices. I help them when they because his back was out and so his team were gonna struggle to help move their offices so I got there I've been between meetings I just pulled in and said, hey, can I help you lift some furniture, move some stuff? I've done. We've got some clients where we've helped them through some tough financial times. It's like, don't pay us, but we're here for you. So we've helped them through it and you know they've responded in kind and it's beautiful, right. So you sit there and you go.

Speaker 2: 15:46

I'm not gonna stop doing these things for people because of that, because of that incident yeah, so, and I talk about responding in kind, but I do things out of kindness and this word for me it's personal, so I'll do things out of kindness and they go. Well, you know, when we want something from that person to return and they don't do it first, well, that's not fair. Well, no, I don't need that. That's responding in kind. If I do something for you, then you can do something for me.

Speaker 2: 16:11

You know, like that's responding in kind, it could be good or bad, but when I respond in kindness, I've already got what I wanted. I feel great because I was able to help you. Like that, I like I got so much that you have no idea, like the two and a half hours benefited me equally, if not more, possibly, than it may have benefited you, because it fed my soul so much to know that I could do something for somebody that I didn't have at the time for me, and so I don't need you to do anything for me because I've already done it, I got what I wanted.

Speaker 2: 16:40

No, I could say well, hey, kurt, I spent two and a half hours on the thing with you. What are you gonna do for me now? Do this back. Yeah, yeah, I need you to do this for me, and that's not fair. Well, you can choose to think that way, I just don't, that's like keeping score.

Speaker 1: 16:52

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:53

So I have limited expectations on people because I don't do it, because I expect something in return, but just probably gives you peace to me too. Yeah, but, like I say, this particular situation it wasn't because of what that it just like a friend has gone and done what I thought wasn't an appropriate thing. Now we had a quick chat about it and, yeah, for me I'm not gonna stop doing the things I do because of that. Sometimes you're gonna get hurt when you trust people Absolutely, but I mean you should stop trusting people.

Speaker 1: 17:21

Absolutely, that's true and a good thing to remember. Yeah, definitely yeah. So tell us a little bit more about like circle leadership, in regards to building it, and like what the core of circle leadership is, and maybe even like what is like the main thing that you would want the people to walk away from this knowing about circle leadership.

Speaker 2: 17:45

Yeah, absolutely so. The reason I started circle leadership is I could see through my own learning and my experiences that I was so focused on growth all the time. And to me, growth is about being more for more. How do I double it? How do I serve more clients? Have more, you know, get my stuff out there to more people and you can grow into obscurity and irrelevance very quickly. And that's what had happened to me twice.

Speaker 2: 18:08

And I, like you know, in personal growth, I like I'm just becoming more of who I am, not becoming more of what I'm capable of, sure. And so I thought well, if you look at all the what history has taught us and all the larger organizations, that they've all been focused on growth and you know, like the large companies, but they all probably had their best year the year before they went bankrupt because they weren't evolving, they weren't moving with the times, they weren't positioning themselves. As Canadians, we have this very famous thing that was said by Wayne Gretzky's dad, which is skate to where the puck's going, not where it is. And a lot of people are just skating. They're chasing the puck, and Wayne Gretzky always went to where he angled it, he'd where the puck would end up.

Speaker 2: 18:43

So that's why he was always open to have a shot Interesting. So if you think about that in context of business, so how can we help people do what they're doing today but be positioning themselves to be ready where the puck is going? And so I wanted to create an organization that was focused on evolution first, growth second, and so circle leadership was created for that purpose. It's actually called circle leadership, though, because in 2001, I created what I called the circle of organizational leadership, so it's a. Instead of the traditional hierarchical structures in organizations you know the typical Yep pyramid skating, what I call ego systems of an organization I wanted to create an ecosystem organization, and so we created this. I have a drawing of it. It was LTL, expedited Air. It was 2001,.

Speaker 2: 19:28

Tim Gleason, we did the very first purpose statement I've ever done for somebody was in 2001. And then we did the. I drew the circle. He said, well, how do I get my team around this? And so I drew this thing. Well, here's how we'll do it, and it just it's kind of like when Just came to be, doc Emmett Brown slipped and his head hit the toilet and he got the flux capacitor.

Speaker 1: 19:44

Yeah, I pull out my flux capacitor moment right.

Speaker 2: 19:48

And the circle of organizational leadership was born, and so everybody answers to something now, not to someone, and we can create all around leadership and you can build an organization that lifts everybody up. And so circle leadership is named after the original model of the circle of organizational leadership, but then the methodology is to help organizations create evolution as the natural state of their business, so they can have growth spirits on the way. So, whereas growth is about becoming more sorry, being more of what you are, evolutions about becoming more of what you're capable and then being more of that. So the steady, progressive increase of our capabilities and our capacity for greatness expands. And in today's crazy world. So this was happening before the pandemic, but now everyone, what's everyone trying to do? Trying to increase their capabilities, to try and evolve their trend, because the world's changing so fast. And so evolution now you'll see the word evolution everywhere, and we've been talking about it since 2017.

Speaker 2: 20:41

And so I wanted to create an organization because I couldn't do it myself right. So this is an important part when you think about. I had this vision where I could see a world where work positively impacted people in the planet. Can you imagine a world where people go home feeling great about the work that they do, even though it was a tough day and a bad day? You know, I think workplaces have a lot to answer for right now for a lot of the challenges we have in society.

Speaker 2: 21:06

What's the biggest killer in the world today? Lifestyle diseases, stress, anxiety, depression. You know you look at all these things and they're 80% of our working hours sorry, 50% of our working hours are spent in the workplace. And people going home, you know, feeling they're being used as a resource, that they're just treated like crap in the workplace and then they turn to drug and alcohol to escape it all. You know, thank God it's Friday and can't wait to get out of work. Imagine if we had people jumping out of bed going. Thank God it's Monday, yeah, you know, because I can't wait to do the work I love with the people I love doing it with, for the people I love doing it for, which is what I get to do every day.

Speaker 2: 21:41

So I wanted to create an organization because I can't do it by myself that could create organizations, have that same feeling that I get every day, and so we wanted to evolve the world of work. So our organization exists to evolve the world of work, and we do it in a way where we apply simplicity. You know, you've known me for a little while now. Everything that I do, andrew, is very fundamental, simple. It's freedom from complexity. We add value by removing things that don't get all the gunk out. And you know we wisdom. We use insight, which is to anticipate and act in advance. We're always thinking about our customers, customers. What's going to happen in their world? How will that impact our customers' world? How can we?

Speaker 2: 22:17

help our customers be prepared for that. You know we value clarity, which is making sure everyone has a profound understanding about the business. We want people to be able to see the future of the organization so they can see themselves having a future in the organization. We want people involved in the work, involved in decisions about the work. We want to delegate outcomes, not toss people. We want to free humans up to do the work that humans must do. Can you imagine organizations where all this stuff's happening? Yeah, I think you noted, at least for me. I've been thinking about it even since you said it at the beginning of this. You said having resources for the humans, not having the humans as the resources.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Yeah, wait, do you want to jump?

Speaker 2: 22:52

out of bed and go. I can't wait to be an expendable commodity today.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Yeah, exactly, I can't wait to be a means to an end.

Speaker 2: 22:56

Exactly. I can't wait to make the boss rich today. Yeah, you know. Hey, like that's not why people want to jump out of bed in the morning. No, not at all. And actually we're talking to some people here and like, oh, it's pretty tough to get some people who want to come work here. And I said, what are you?

Speaker 2: 23:08

doing it's not the people. I tell you, you're not making it a compelling enough reason, making the work more meaningful and to get them excited and help them see why they should be a part of this organization, help them have a sense of belonging. Right, Fundamentally, you want to create a sense of belonging in your organization. Do people want to be there for a long time?

Speaker 1: 23:26

Yeah, and it goes so beyond what you pay people to yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:29

So beyond that, pay is always like the fourth, fifth or sixth thing on the list of what people want, what they worry about.

Speaker 2: 23:34

They want a sense of my book. Simplify was written on the fundamental three things, and Chris talked a bit about it. That's where he got it from right, at the level up of his opening. They want three things. They want something to believe in, right, so I want to have a sense of meaning to the work I do. They want someone who believes in them. I want to know that I have a leader or an organization that's going to empower me to make smarter decisions and believes in me. And the last thing they want is someone to believe in A leader who has a picture of the world that's bigger than all of us combined and something we can't accomplish alone.

Speaker 1: 24:02

Yeah, Imagine we had those three things.

Speaker 2: 24:04

In an organization, people would drive an hour to go work there, just to go work, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:08

I think of, even like my experience in why, toward the end, obviously not a corporate wasn't all bad, but I didn't want to work in corporate anymore, and even my wife's experience in corporate now, and I think it's. It's so difficult when you really think about it because we are, we are when you say it like that. We are humans and we're all interacting as humans. But I fall victim too as a manager in corporate. You know we were very quick to. You know, write people off because they didn't fit into what we thought that mold was. Instead of. You know, look at sometimes and say, what is it that we are at it if they're a good individual?

Speaker 2: 24:46

We think they're a good worker. That's right.

Speaker 1: 24:47

But it's not working because they're not like xx and x or him or me, or then what are we doing to make sure they're in the right place? We would just be like, well, they're not a right fit and be very quick to move on. And that's kind of the culture I would say in the United States too, is be quick to fire, which I think is a Good thing to have. But I think sometimes we don't really look into why we're being quick to fire If there's culpability on our end of it.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Why do we need to fire people? Why can't we just recruit them out? Yeah right, and you were talking about that the other night at the mixer.

Speaker 1: 25:18

That's a great point to touch on. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:20

So, like you, think about this, if we were human first in this, like we, if, just because someone doesn't fit or doesn't want to be a part of where we're going as An organization, it does not make them a bad human being Just because they don't want to share the same vision, or it's true? Yeah, organization we want a part of, but if you're not with us, you're out. Yeah, we'll fire you. Right, but did you recruit those people in? Yes, so you saw something in them that you, while you hired them in, you recruited them in, brought them in. Yeah, so why would you not find a way to recruit them out, which is to help them find what it is it? Hey, if it's you guys. If you're not, this isn't part of what you want to be of in the future.

Speaker 2: 25:55

Thank you so much for helping us to get to here. How can I help you? Because I care about you as a human being first, an employee second, even if you're leaving. If you want to Find out how great an organization is and I said this the other night look at how they recruit people out of the organization. What happens when people leave that organization. You know it's all roses and you know to come in.

Speaker 1: 26:15

But when you like get your ass out the door. Don't let the door hit you with a good word split you. Yeah, boom out, you go right. Very true.

Speaker 2: 26:22

Yeah, and so what if we looked at recruiting people out and fundamentally, that concept is Saying you know, if we've, we can't find the right motivation for them to want to be here, and we can't. They don't want to be trained and be developed and they don't want to evolve. That's okay. So recruiting them out is simply this hey, while you're here, andrew, and I'll just pick on you, sort not not that your performance is in this space.

Speaker 2: 26:45

Is hey, while you're here, if you can maintain this level of performance, here's what I'm gonna do for you. We agree that this isn't what you want to do in that, so, but to help you, you can take whatever time to go to job interviews. I'll give you a great reference. So, as you maintain this level of performance while you're here until you can find what it is you like, yeah, I'm gonna help you. All right, because what are you gonna do if not? You're gonna chuck a sick day, you're gonna go up whatever, and you're gonna do the quiet quit. Yeah, do the quiet quitting and stuff like that. So I want to work with you, I want to help you find what it is.

Speaker 2: 27:12

Yeah, and that gives me time also to find somebody else you're my part out yeah and I said but if you lie to me and you don't tell me that you're going to interview or you take a day off Just to go to in things like that, you won't get the reference. You won't get that. We'll have a different conversation. So I want to be human first yeah and say second yeah, and then employee, second right. So as a human, how can I help you? And I've done this before.

Speaker 2: 27:33

You know, I've actually one guy I hired in Australia from the companies. It was interesting because he he was in retail and he's got young kids and he didn't get to spend much time. He had work weekends, you know retail and all that. And they were like two and four missing school assemblies, all that really important stuff. And I said his name was David and I said David, you know he was phenomenal, he was great candidate for the role in that. And I said here's the deal I'll give you the job if you miss one child assembly. If I find out from your wife that you've missed a kids assembly at school, you've missed anything like that school trip, you name it whatever, you will be fired.

Speaker 2: 28:09

Hmm and he's like what I said, you've come here because you want, so we're gonna find a way to help create a work situation For you. That way you can have that, you can have that flexibility, because that's the reason why you're leaving where you were to come here. If I find out you've come here and you're not doing the reason why you left here, that'd be different conversation. Yeah, and he's like, wow, nobody's ever. I said, well, you told me this was important. Yeah, and I care about human being and so, if you're gonna and I know what it's like to have grown up my dad was the work all like blesses, cotton socks, but as a dad, I learned from that and I want to be present in my kids life. Yeah, so here's another dad and I'm going. How can I help them? Make sure he stays?

Speaker 1: 28:44

at that spot.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Yeah, so when you're bringing people in, and then you're letting people go and Freeing up their future. If you want whatever you call, I call it recruiting them out, yeah, and then the choice becomes theirs whether they want to have that Benefit or do they want to be treated like an employee. I'm gonna treat you like a human.

Speaker 1: 28:58

First, let's you choose if you want to be treated like, that's right. Yeah, it's kind of. When you do it like that, people become more self-aware of whether they're the problem or not, too, I think that's right.

Speaker 2: 29:08

Yeah and and then you know what, and Then I can put my hand on my heart, and it's what I said. Leaders like you have to be a put your hand on your heart. Good. Did I set this person up for success and they're choosing to fail? Or if I set them up for failure and they're failing, mm-hmm. If I sit you up from failure and you're failing, that's on me. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 29:23

But if I've done everything my power to set you up for success and you choose to fail in that arena, that's on you and I think you have to remember to like people inherently don't show up to work wanting to do a bad job, no matter what it is. So there's got to be Something, whether it's person or a professor or a mixture causing that person to show up and have the result that they're having. Yeah, it's not by intent, typically.

Speaker 2: 29:43

Yeah, well, this is a funny thing, like today in organizations, we get so many leaders go. I wish my people would think for themselves, I wish they would use initiative, I wish they would be accountable and I go. Well, what do you have to do? Because that well, I have to do all thinking for us. I have to do all this and you know I have to. You know, be on them and micromanage them. And I said it's your fault. You've created an environment where you've allowed that to happen. Now we're in a world where you need people to think for themselves. You need them to, and they don't know how. And they don't know how because you've just spent all these past years telling them what to do and think you know forum.

Speaker 2: 30:10

And you know so. I grew up in an era where it was like, dave, you're paid to work, not to think, yeah, and I joke with leaders half-heartedly and say, well, today it's, the world is where you know, kurt, you're paid to think, and while you're here, if you had to do some work, that'd be awesome. Yeah, yeah, Because we need people to be able to think for themselves, but we've conditioned them so much not to. And the same as those other scenarios we've conditioned people to think that the organization does not care about me, they're just using me as a means to an end. And so why do we got to give people time to come around to this? And this is why it's about evolving and it's a steady, progressive increase, because, like, okay, I'm letting you think for yourself, I'm empowering you to make decisions and you're not doing it now. Why not? Yeah, well, because you just spent the last 10 years telling me not to do this. Yeah, and now you have a sudden tomorrow, you expect me to be.

Speaker 1: 30:51

You want me to change yeah?

Speaker 2: 30:52

That's not how it works. It's a process.

Speaker 1: 30:55

Yeah, and even in I think about some of the companies I worked out where I was in, you know, management there were times where when you were in a certain role, they really just wanted you to rank and file, but to get to the next role, they wanted you to think for themselves, and it's really a totally different mindset.

Speaker 2: 31:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, also, when you think the people go from one role to the next, they take all the things that they were doing in that role into that next role because they thought, well, this is the stuff that made me successful and why they promoted me, yeah, yeah, and so I keep holding on, and then I got to take on that, and so why are people working longer and harder now, so trying to do everything? Because they're still doing what they were doing before and trying to take on the new thing rather than going. Well, who do I need to become now to do this role? Yeah, right, this is why you've seen it in sales you can take the best salesperson and they make the worst sales manager. Yeah, right, because then they end up you end up losing the best salesperson or the thing Everyone despised that person because they were making more sales anyway. Yeah, and now you put them in charge of people, yeah, and then they're still acting like and they're going and taking the deals and going. Why aren't they just copying me? Why are they not just emulating my? Yeah Makes sense. Yeah, so we need to learn to let go of.

Speaker 2: 31:59

I call it like. It's kind of like monkey bars. They call monkey bars. Yeah, yeah. So you're on the monkey bars, you're holding on to the monkey bars, right, and the only way to get to the to move on the monkey bars is you have to let go of one to get the other. But you sit there and you're holding on to both and guess what happens? You just get fatigued and eventually you can't hold on to it any longer and you drop.

Speaker 2: 32:18

Yeah, and this is where stress, anxiety, burnout, depression all these things start to happen because people don't know what to let go of, because they don't know what to grab hold of Next yeah, right, and so we haven't done a good job of showing people where the next monkey bar, where the thing is, so they can actually reach and grab the next one. Yeah, and so they're getting fatigued at work Just holding, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 32:35

That actually brings me to.

Speaker 1: 32:36

So I was getting lunch with a friend of ours in the real estate industry earlier this week and one of the things we were talking about that their business coach was talking to them and kind of we've been talking to Cumbia about is kind of like when and even Mike Sanders, the human performance coach, is about you know, when is it the right time to hit the pause button so you can keep going in that direction instead of having decline in your productivity?

Speaker 1: 32:58

Yeah, and it's a very hard thing to balance for people who are, you know, entrepreneurs and have that kind of go get her. Like I always tell people I have trouble closing windows in my brain. Yep, I leave a bunch of windows open at all time and I'm just thinking about them and so. But I think what I've realized is that that fatigue that you're talking about it's the same thing for an entrepreneur and personal life is we try to hold on to everything and do so much of everything and we confuse activity with accomplishment and we never hit that pause button and what I found is when I do that, my performance actually declines. And so what? When? In that regard, what is it that you recommend to people if you know what is the correct way to know that balance.

Speaker 2: 33:39

Well, firstly, you need to have your decision making filters in place so you know that you can actually make smarter decisions about the things you should be working on. That I'll talk about that in a second. But a lot of people attract activity as a result rather than the result of the activity. And, once again, so we're worrying about delegating tasks to people rather than delegating outcomes. And then we're worried about if you can achieve the outcome. I think we talked about this the other night. If you can achieve the outcome that in six hours instead of eight, why should I be concerned about that? I should be more worried about how much you punch out rather than when you punch in and out right In the business. Sure, but having those decision making filters in place are critical as part of this process of improving your own productivity.

Speaker 2: 34:18

And when I talk about decisions, most people think you know it's like oh, what should I be working on? If you look at the concept of the word decision and I know both myself and Damien talked about this last year at level up is that when a surgeon does an incision that is cutting into a decision is cutting out or cutting off. So when you're making decision, it's about having us to learn what to say no to, because we should already know what to say yes to, so we help people understand what they should be saying yes to. Otherwise, you're doing all these things and we're trying to do everything and you have no way to decide what's going to give us traction and what becomes a distraction. It's really like an editing out.

Speaker 1: 34:56

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:58

Because you know, when you have all those windows open, you guys get up your laptop or your computer and open up all those windows. What happens to your laptop or your computer's performance when you have 40?

Speaker 2: 35:06

It goes down, yeah it slows down, so you have a diminishing rate of productivity. You're actually working less and even in the workplace these people are working 10 hours, and this is why a lot of people are actually more productive sometimes working from home, because they're actually getting more done in less time, because they're not the distractions in the workplace.

Speaker 1: 35:23

Is that going to incentive to get it done in less time so you can go do whatever? Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 35:27

Yeah, and what's wrong with that? Yeah, so my advice to people is don't confuse activity as a result. Look at the result of the activity and look at ways where you can improve that result with less time and effort. Productivity is about outputs over inputs, so the more outputs I can achieve, the less inputs means I'm more productive. Yeah, and so sometimes there's two ways to get better results Work longer and harder than you ever have, or shift the way you think about things, and that thinking will drive new behaviors which will get you new results.

Speaker 1: 35:57

Yeah, right. So how many people you know are working longer and harder?

Speaker 2: 36:01

than they ever have. So that's part of the process In organizations. Systems are a wonderful thing to improve the way people work, because James Clear wrote about it in his book Atomic Habits. He said you don't rise to the level of your goals, you only fall to the level of your systems. And it's the same thing as that. What's your system? Because your system is to open up a whole bunch of things and be working on a thousand different things at a different time. That's great. That's the way your mind might work but it's not the most productive way.

Speaker 1: 36:28

No, and actively forcing ourselves to be focused and are saying this year is, keep it simple, stupid, right, yeah, michael Scott from the office, and honestly, we've had having very good results doing that. Now I get tempted, because things are going well and there's monotony in that, to want to do this, this and this. But I have to tell myself, you know, just stay really focused on doing what you're doing well and when you maximize that you can expand on it.

Speaker 2: 36:53

Yeah, but when you're doing really well and you've got time now, what are you supposed to do with that time?

Speaker 1: 36:59

Yeah, and it's not busy myself. It's to have balance Right.

Speaker 2: 37:03

But once you can prioritize Rest, and I know the peak performance was it Mike, mike, yeah, yeah, he would tell you that Rest is a high-pay off activity. Yeah, he did tell us that. Yeah, what? Because, yeah, so Rest is. We don't think of that as a productive thing to do. Therefore, when we get this stuff done, we go how do I fill that time now with something?

Speaker 2: 37:24

Yeah, and what most of us don't know is what to fill that time with, and so if you don't see that as like go for a walk or go have a round of golf or go do something that you enjoy, whatever it might be, it's okay to do that. Lisa in our team, she likes netball. I don't know if it's like a big thing over here in Australia. It's huge.

Speaker 1: 37:42

I don't know why they call it netball, it's a ring with no net, but it's like basketball, but you can't run. Really. It's an interesting game, netball. I got to look at that one, you do that one. I'll just start a pinball scene.

Speaker 2: 37:52

Next one, so there's a big ring around it. It's called netball. There's no net on it.

Speaker 1: 37:55

Oh, I think obviously you can run when you don't have.

Speaker 2: 37:58

as soon as you get the ball, you have to stop, you got to pass it and you got to pass it, or you can shoot whatever yeah netball, but during the day she would go down to the netball courts and even in the middle of the day like and just shoot hoops. Right, yeah, Because it was really good for her to rest, relax. It helped her mind relax.

Speaker 1: 38:13

Clear, clear head.

Speaker 2: 38:14

Where do you get your best ideas, mate?

Speaker 1: 38:17

Probably not when I'm working In the shower. Wherever you work, Wherever you find peace yeah, not when you work and when you put it in your shower, you go for a walk, Whatever else.

Speaker 2: 38:24

And these really great eyes, because you give your mind time to think about things. So it's actually rest or going doing something. Filling that gap with something else is far more productive than actually just keep grinding this whole grind and hustle mentality is crazy. Go fishing or something yeah absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:40

You would like. I learned this a long time ago when I was back at the bank and I think I would come out of the elevator I was on the fourth floor and then, where the 75 people were, I would go to the coffee room, grab a coffee for myself and one for somebody else, because I knew everyone's coffee orders and so each day I would pick a different person and I would go and I'd drop a coffee and they'd just have a quick chat with them. So every single day I would at least meet one person and say good morning, and I had like this maze. Then I would go into my office, which is in the far back corner and it's like a fishball, a big glass, and there was a whiteboard and people used to joke about it because I would just go in there, put my coffee down, I turned the whiteboard, pick up a marker and I would just stare at the whiteboard and I would just think, yeah, and just think about what's the best way to make today the best day ever?

Speaker 2: 39:24

Yeah, and that was my thinking time and people think it took a while to work out what I was doing, but the team loved it because then I would come up with new ideas, great in different things we could work on, and, but having that time to stop and think, yeah, pause, it was a pretty most productive part of my day, actually.

Speaker 1: 39:41

Yeah, just a few minutes, yeah, yeah so let me ask you this this is the last question that we like to ask every single person that comes on the podcast, whether it's personal, whether it's professional Hmm, doesn't matter what arena it is what is the single piece of advice, or legacy piece of advice, you would want to give to people that you think is gonna be the most impactful for them and help them? Wow, what a big question.

Speaker 2: 40:09

This was legacy piece. That's a good one. Gee, my brain's gonna like 500 things dropping through. You had a young entrepreneur in front of you and you wanted to give him whatever 45 seconds worth of advice. Okay, I'll tell you what it is, and this is the reason why I wrote my book simplified. I wanted my kids to know if, like, if it just the three copies went to each one of my children, which I did they got the first three copies. That's cool.

Speaker 2: 40:41

I wanted them to anything after that if it sold. I think it's sold like a couple thousand Copies now, but I said anything after that would just be a bonus to me. I wanted my kids to know so that they could look back and go this is what my dad was passionate about, this is the work that he wanted doing, this is what his life's work was, and that that they would go and find their thing so they could always read like they knew that this is the problem Dad was passionate about solving in the world, and I would encourage them to do the same thing, because a lot of new entrepreneurs they're trying to start a business when they should be starting up a solution to a problem that they're passionate about fixing in the world. We asked kids today what do you want to be when you grow up? Instead of, what problem Do you see in your world that you'd like to solve today? It's true, and then how could you do that? Right, because that taps in the creative mind. Yeah, my advice.

Speaker 2: 41:28

Then my legacy piece, because that's what the book is, that's my legacy, that's my life's work, and that I wanted the kids to know that this is what their dad was really passionate about and, if anything ever happened to me, they know that I died doing what I love doing. Yeah, and from all the lessons I've learned, took me a long time. I've been of a slow learner.

Speaker 1: 41:45

By time.

Speaker 2: 41:45

I got there, so my advice to get on to it sooner rather than later, which is why we talked about the soul and what feeds your passion, and stuff like that. And passion isn't the stuff that you love per se. It's about what are you willing to endure, because passion means to suffer, yeah. So what are you willing to suffer for? Not in a bad way, but your ability to endure to really bring something to this world.

Speaker 1: 42:04

Well, it's guaranteed not to be easy.

Speaker 2: 42:06

No.

Speaker 1: 42:06

The big, the things worth having, or the things that we're truly called to do, are never gonna come easy by by by nature.

Speaker 2: 42:13

So, yeah, you have to be willing to endure something to get it, I think, and that's yeah, someone told me once that God gives his biggest battles to his toughest warriors, right, and so you have to go through a lot of those battles and you lose some and but you win a lot and To have the impact that you want to have on the world, and don't be afraid to do that. So my kids now know, and that they can pursue what they want, because I know that that dad's doing it.

Speaker 1: 42:39

Yeah, and I want them to look at me go, hey dad's.

Speaker 2: 42:42

That's do whatever it takes and I've I've had very low moments in the past seven years with the business and very high moments and and they've seen that whole journey. Yeah, but they know I've never given up.

Speaker 1: 42:51

Yeah, and the and the and the in your honest about it too.

Speaker 2: 42:54

Yeah, which is what's most important and I'll leave this as a wrap-up on that, because I've shared the story before with people. But the moral to the story is you never know who's watching. And One day I was sitting there and in tears in my eyes when I first started the business and just when the kids were a lot younger and I was going. You know I should just quit and get a job. What have I done to my family? I should just quit.

Speaker 2: 43:16

And you know, mitchell was in his bed sleeping there. I was leaning against his bed, jordan was in her clock, she was probably five months old, six months old, and he was probably two or three. And and then this Whisper in the back of my head said Dave, what are you teaching your kids if you give up? That when things get tough, it's okay to give up? Yeah, and that was the catalyst that sent me on the journey. And then when I wrote my book and I dedicated the book to the kids as well, a bunch of other people, but gave them all the free coffee so that they know that's impactful.

Speaker 2: 43:44

Yeah, so that's what I would challenge people, that would be my, that's my legacy and that's what I, you know, build your legacy and the great leadership is my legacy, and which? Why didn't name it after me? Because I didn't want it to be named after me. I didn't want that.

Speaker 1: 43:55

Yeah, I wanted to be about the purpose.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Yeah, I know there's a lot of people who have their organizations named after them. A lot of leadership people do that and there's nothing wrong with that, but for me could fit. Why didn't just call it Dave Claire company, whatever? And I said no because I wanted something that would transcend my time on this earth.

Speaker 1: 44:07

Yeah, make sense. So that's, that'd be my answer. It's a huge piece of advice. I love that. Yeah, well, dave, I Honestly, I can't really believe that we're sitting here doing like when I think back to the conversation we had at a table a year ago, yeah, but it was very cool and, as always, I feel ten times better than I did this morning before talking to you and I think that's your blessing and your gift and I appreciate you coming on, my friend.

Speaker 2: 44:32

Thank you both. Thank you, dave, mate, pleasure to be here. When I saw it and I thought I'm here. Can I please, please, come on here? Just so I could also say and you may have seen this yourself, andrew, but from where I saw Kurt last, where I see him today, oh yeah, the transformation I'm gonna do those to you, and along what 36 months a role model and the epitome of personal development. And, mate, I appreciate it was just just to be here, just to see you again.

Speaker 1: 44:58

Yeah, I appreciate that so much.

Speaker 2: 45:00

Thanks, dave.

Speaker 1: 45:01

Yeah, my pleasure, all right.